Is it Just to punish an innocent man? Pt. 6

"Isn't it possible that the universe had no cause? If not why not?"

It is not possible that the universe had no cause, because the universe exhibits motion in terms of existence. It's expanding, and as far as we can tell, it did not exist as it does now before the Big Bang. If it moves to exist, something else must already have existed for it to be able to do so.

"How? I see no reason to think that the uncaused cause is God."

Well, I didn't want to drop a massive amount of information on you all at once. We'll go step by step, if that's alright with you.

So let's say, for argument's sake, that we've agreed there is no uncaused cause, and we now must examine what that uncaused cause is. My first argument after that would be that we know the Uncaused Cause is a being, since only a being could have chosen to create, and there's no other way an Uncaused Cause would create. As it cannot be caused to create, and thus cannot be forced to do anything, it must choose to do so.

We'll progress from there at the next juncture.

"Why?"

Because if we are correct that something caused the universe, then the universe is not an accident. It exists the way it exists because something created it to exist that way. Instead of an accident with neither reason nor purpose, it is a work of art with both.

"Wait a second, maybe science can't prove a deistic God, one that doesn't interact with the physical world and is above it like you say. But a theistic one, that does interact with the physical world like the Bible and Christianity says should have some sort of evidence."

No, science cannot prove any sort of God, because science depends on repeatable, testable, empirical evidence. Miracles, particularly historical ones, do not fall into any category of scientific analysis. And they do not generally leave very much hard evidence for scientists now to examine. Those that do, and there are a few, cannot be treated conclusively, since a skeptic can always find reasons to doubt.

"For instance the story in 1 Kings 18, where Elijah prays to have God burn his sacrifice. If that happened every time, that could be explored via the senses and be capable of repeated observation. But for some reason it doesn't happen every time. Why doesn't it?"

Because miracles are not natural phenomenon. They are supernatural events, there is absolutely no reason why they would, or even should, occur in laboratory conditions where they can be repeated and tested and observed. God acts as He wills, not as we do.

"I changed my view of the entire universe and my place in it, it was an incredibly humbling experience."

Except, of course, that the experience of going from a positive belief to a position of skeptical disbelief is not the same as going from a position of skeptical belief to one of positive belief. For the first, what is required is not evidence, it is anything that makes you doubt in such a way that your mind at the time cannot cope. For the second, what is required is not only a vast building up of evidence, but a movement in your interior, a conversion of the heart which is brought about by God.

So I ask again, how is this comparable?

"It's not pure subjectivity. I believe in things that can be proven through the scientific method. If I believed in voices that only I can hear that would be subjective."

No, you believe in things that have what you deem to be strong evidence, as you said before. You depend on your own subjective analysis to determine what is strong or not. That you believe empiricism proves anything means that you believe in pure subjectivity. Empiricism itself is purely subjective. Empiricism depends on the input of the senses, which are dependent on each individuals brain. They're as subjective as the "voices" example you provided. Each are stimuli interpreted by a brain, and frankly as legitimate as the other.

Moreover, your dependence on empiricism is only partial. Have you performed the experiments yourself? Have you gone through the whole corpus of modern science and tested it all yourself? No? Then what you're really relying on isn't even your senses, it's your personal trust for a system which you, in all likelihood, will never examine completely, nor truly test. You choose to believe it and accept it, which is why it's subjective.

"Because there would be evidence that there is a god."

There's evidence here that there is a God. But do all convert? People suffer on Earth, do they all convert? People are spoken to by God here on Earth, do they all convert? I'm telling you right now that God exists and loves you, are you going to convert as a result? Again, you seem to think you're entitled to as many opportunities as it takes, and this type of thinking only makes it impossible for you to actually love God. You're own attitude would make conversion, at any point, impossible. If you think yourself entitled to it, you'll never get it.

"The reason I don't believe in God is not because I hate God or because I only want to care about myself."

We're not talking about belief anymore. We're talking about conversion, which is more than belief, it's love. People cannot love God in the self-sacrificing way in which He loves them if they are selfish and believe themselves entitled.

"It is because there is no evidence of God."

Interesting claim. Can you prove it?

"And that is not the only reason. Sometimes the only thing people need to change their mind is time."

If it's not the only reason, what are the others?

The thing people need to change their mind is God.

"Maybe I misspoke when I said "should." It would not be just to constantly get another chance."

But then it must end at some point. If it ends at some point, why not death, when it would logically end anyway, since there's no more time left for decision making?

"But constantly giving another chance is something that an infinitely loving god would do."

That's an assertion, one I've already shown to be false. An infinitely loving God would want people to be with Him, out of their own love for Him. If they choose to not love Him, that's that. If it would not be to just constantly give them more chances, what would it be?

If you're just going to make these claims, you need to back them up.

"And it's something I hope I would do myself."

I don't think you've thought that through particularly well.

"Also, although it would not be just to always be given another chance, it would also not be just to have someone be tortured for eternity for any reason."

Who said anything about torturing people, or about there being no reason? Don't project your own false preconceptions onto Christian theology. Hell is neither about being tortured, nor do people go there without reason.

"Why couldn't God make an afterlife that's temporal and then once we chose to go to Heaven and accept God we go there and if we choose Hell we go there and if we choose nonexistence we can cease to exist?"

Why would God make an afterlife that is just like life? What is the point? At some point, we still have to be allowed to make a decision, why extend it? If a person didn't choose God in this life, despite all the myriad opportunities, why would they choose Him in the next? Again, what you seem to misunderstand is that the attitude of entitlement you're speaking from is the very attitude that prevents self-sacrificing love of God. A person who loved God wouldn't need such an afterlife. A person who didn't love God could never benefit from it, since they would still not love God. If this life was not enough, there's no EVIDENCE to believe another one would be.

And again, non-existence is not an option. Ending our existence would be evil. God is Good. Ergo, God will not allow our existence to end. And as only God can end it, God would have to directly act to end them. Thus our existences will not end.

"Why is our existence continually willed by God, but our life not? Why does God put our life in our control but not our existence?"

Because we have to be able to choose to love Him or not love Him, of course. Suicide is the ultimate rejection of good, the most potent and eternal sin. It is the sin that makes all other sins impossible, to paraphrase Chesterton. It's the fullest rejection of God we can make.

Our existence is willed by God because our existence is the very base line of goodness. In that we exist, we are still good, albeit corrupted, and we can be redeemed. If we cease to exist, we cannot be redeemed. Not only would our telos be unfulfilled, but the very good of our existence would be lost.

Now, our lives are willed for by God. God wills us to live, but allows us free choice. That only extends to the realm of our souls, ie the realm in which we live. Our choices then, can effect our lives, but our existence itself is metaphysical, it's beyond just this life that we live.

"It wouldn't be taken from us, we would be giving it away."

No, it would still be being taken away. You do not own your existence. You do not own your life. You do not own your body. Everything you are is a gift, or more accurately, a loan. God is the source of your existence, your life and your body, they were His first, and He is their author and origin. You get to use them, but you do not own them. You'd be taking from yourself, and from Him.

There is, after all, a reason why suicides are said to take their own lives. They're stealing from the one who gave them.

"God wouldn't be the one doing it, we would if we chose to."

God is the only being capable of doing so, so you're quite wrong there. God is the act of existence itself. Only God can choose for existence to end for a particular being.

"It's our choice, in the same way it's not God's fault if we choose Hell over eternity with him, wouldn't it not be God's fault if we chose nonexistence over eternity with him?"

Fault is irrelevant. We don't have that power, nor can we, as we are caused and contingent beings.

"Does that mean it is better to exist in Hell than not exist at all?"

It means existence itself is the first and foremost good we can know, and that to end existence would be the most paramount act of evil.

So yes, existence in whatever state is morally higher than to stop a being from taking part in the act of existence.