Mary and the Saints in Catholicism

This one will be in the form of a sort of dialog addressing common questions/misconceptions about Mary and the Saints. Apologetics 101 right here!

The first issue I'll address is that of the often noted complaint of many Protestants that Catholics place Mary on too high of a pedestal, despite her being a human, born of human parents. Most specifically we are often challenged on hymns or praise directed towards her, or prayer (which will have its own section, as it's quite important).

I do not disagree that Mary was human or born of human parents. In fact, I don't think you'll find any Catholic who would disagree with that, haha, though there are some crazy schismatic groups who are a bit nuts on Mary. But I would like to challenge this idea that hymns or praise of a human are out of place.

And I would like to challenge it based on the idea of glorification. Glorification in Catholic Theology is, in a sense, the last part of the process of salvation, and it is when we have died and entered into Heaven, we are glorified in addition to being justified and sanctified. You will find that Paul goes into this topic in depth in Romans chapter 8, but it is also present in other Epistles from the Apostle. I would like to examine a couple quickly in order to help illustrate an important point.

First, Galatians chapter 1, verse 24. Paul states, "And they glorified God in me." He says this while relaying his conversion experience, his missionary history, etc. and how he was called by God away from persecuting the Church to proclaiming the Church. And he says of those who heard of this remarkable conversion that they glorified God in him.

I would like to suggest that what this statement means was that in all of the Saints, in all holy men called by God, driven by the Spirit, etc., and in all who are glorified by God when they have been saved, that when we give to them glory and praise, we are also giving glory, honor and praise to the God who glorified them. For they would not be glorified without Him. If we honor them, how much more must we honor the One who made them and called them? And if we honor the One who glorifies them, is it not right and fitting for us to glorify them as well, for that is what God Himself has chosen to do?

Next, II Thessalonians, 1:10 and 1:12 in which Paul says, respectively, "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be made wonderful in all them who have believed; because our testimony was believed upon you in that day." and "That the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ."

Again we see this interesting idea of God being glorified in His Saints. God being glorified in people, not just on His own, but also that in His servants His glory is also made manifest, thus making it right and proper to glorify them and through them Him. The second verse emphasizes this especially by noting, as I said before, that this is a dual property. "That the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God, [...]." Christ's name is glorified in His servants, in all of us when we act as true Christians should. And at the same time, we are glorified in Him as a result. Again I say, to those whom God has glorified, it is only right and fitting that we also glorify them, for God has raised them up.

Now, how does this relate to Mary? In Catholic theology, all of the Saints, those whom we know to be in Heaven, they are all considered glorified by Christ, in Christ, through Christ. Mary is also a Saint, making it right and proper for us to give her honor, glory and praise, for God Himself has done so. Moreover, there is a certain added dignity to Mary's position. Mary does have a unique role in all of human history, and is really only comparable to Eve in terms of all women in the world. Eve is the daughter of God through whom disobedience entered into the world, and Mary is the daughter of God whose perfect obedience brought the new Adam, Christ the Redeemer into the world. No other woman can ever make such a claim, no other woman can ever rightly be called the Mother of God. Which means, in the final analysis, that Mary is not only a glorified Saint, but also a person with a certain added dignity due to our recognition of her vast historical importance, and most especially to her critically important obedience. Had Mary refused God's Will, which was always within her power as she had Free Will just as we do, she would've disrupted God's entire plan for our salvation. No other human born of human parents was as singularly instrumental in any work of God's, not to mention in the greatest work of God, our Redemption. Therefore, I find I must object that it is only fitting that we afford to Mary the highest respect and honor given to any human born of human parents. We do not equate her to God, of course, but we do place her above all others, for only Mary can be said to have been perfectly obedient to God's will, and only Mary as a regular human can be said to have been crucially important to God's plan for our salvation.

To delve further into the topic of respect, we also should examine the words used to describe how Catholics regard Mary, the Saints and God:

Due to the inadequacies of the English language there are often misconceptions on this point. In Greek (and Latin, I believe the terms became mingled linguistically), the words dulia, hyper-dulia and latria are the words used to apply to the Saints, Mary and God respectively. Generally they are approximately translated as Respect, Reverence and Worshipful Adoration. Notice the gap between Mary and God and the linguistic relation between Mary and the Saints. We respect Saints, and revere Mary, both things we can do to people because they are varying degrees of respect and we must respect even those who are on Earth, so obviously we must respect those God has chosen to Glorify. God has Glorified them, therefore it is fitting that we also give them proper respect, as I've said like four times now. Both are based off the word dulia, whereas to God alone the word latria is applied. Latria is true worship, true adoration and full glory given, a huge difference in degree from the other two, but one that is simply not as noticeable in the English language, I'm sad to say.

As for Mary in particular she was just a human on Earth, like us, so how did she find such favor with God? Catholics do not believe that Mary is in any way divine, she is not God, at all, never was, never will be (I think you know this, but I like to be sure). So why did God find favor in her? Clearly Mary played a special role in God's plan for us, she was the mother of Christ, a unique position in the whole of human history. But before that, what was she? Just a woman to be sure. So what was there to find favor in? We know that humans are sinful, stained creatures whom God doesn't generally find favor in. Does anyone ever receive a greeting like Mary's, "Hail Mary, full of Grace," "Hail Mary, most favored one!" in the rest of the Bible? Mary was special, but still human. Full of Grace, most favored, highly favored, what does this mean? It means that Mary, because of her special role, was preserved from sin by God. Mary, as Ark of the Covenant, from the very moment of her conception was cleansed from sin by God through Christ to be the hallowed Vessel that would carry the New Covenant, Christ Jesus. We know that on our own, we are as nothing to God, that our good deeds are like dirty rags, that our obedience is ever failing, and our humility weak and fragile. There is nothing in us to favor. Thus Mary could only have found favor with God through God Himself working to preserve her from the failings of the rest of us. By freeing her from Original Sin and pouring Grace into her, He effectively kept her from sinning at any later point in time to preserve her purity for Christ. Yes, she's just a woman. A woman who found favor with God.

Next, I'll address the misconception that Catholics do not believe Mary needed a savior.

Catholics teach that Mary was born without sin, but not that she didn't need a Savior. In fact, we believe that Mary was born without sin because she had a Savior, her Son who made her specifically and especially for her role in His life, in His plan, etc. Mary is not only the new Eve, the obedient daughter who helps to remedy the flaws of the disobedient daughters, but she is also the new Ark of the Covenant, the sanctified vessel in which God Himself resided for nine months. Here is something to consider. I think you would agree that to have an intimate relationship with God, we must be sanctified, that is, we must be holy and without stain of sin. For most of us, this sanctification first occurs when we become Christians. For Mary, this sanctification occurred when she was conceived, because she would have to be sanctified to serve as the vessel for Christ who was God. And what means, exactly, were present for her sanctification outside of miraculous intervention?

If we analyze the nature of sin, and understand that sin generates a proclivity towards sinning more, it doesn't make sense to make Mary a creature suffering from the burden of Original Sin as we ourselves do. Proclivity towards sin in the Theotokos? If she were to make sacrifices for the remission of her sins in the Jewish fashion, there is still no reason that she, as a sinner then, wouldn't fall right back into sin, losing her sanctification and thus losing the special characteristic logic tells us would be needed for someone to bear God within her, intimately bound to her life. Mary must be protected from sin, and protected in such a way that her Free Will is never compromised, for to do so would be to make her a slave, which is a horrible and detestable notion to God. The only possible means for this are to create Mary without any blemish of Original sin, to ensure that she doesn't develop our proclivity towards sin, and then to shower her with Grace so that she always knows and desires the path of God instead of the path of sin. In this way, Mary can choose to follow God's Will, and thus not only retain her Free Will and not violate the divine plan for all Creation, but at the same time, set for us a perfect example of obedience to God's Will, even when we know the consequences will be dark (remember in normal circumstances Mary would've been disgraced, ostracized, even stoned for becoming pregnant with a child that wasn't her betrothed's, yet still she obeyed with no thought for herself).

And again, referencing my earlier argument, there is no other time in the Bible when any human is addressed as "Full of Grace", or as "Highly Favored One," by an angel, a messenger of God. No human who is sinful is worthy of such a greeting, and no human who is sinful ever receives one. Mary is very different, she is not sinful, she is full of Grace, and Grace is rather contrary to sin.

As I said, we certainly agree that Mary needed a Savior. But we, perhaps, disagree in the action of salvation. To use a popular Catholic analogy, most humans are like blind people who have fallen into a pit. We are trapped, stuck and buried, unable to escape on our own, basically helpless. For us, the Savior is the person who can see and comes along and pulls us out of the hole, and even brings light to our eyes that we may see for ourselves and avoid future pitfalls. But this is not the only way in which the Savior can save. For the Savior can also save by guiding the blind around the pit, preserving them from it in the first place, and saving them without them ever falling. It is in this way that Mary was saved. She was saved by a preemptive act of the Grace of God, in order to make her the perfect vessel God required for His plans, the perfect example of obedience, and the perfect mother for His Divine Begotten Son.

Catholics are often challenged on why we have need of intercessors (who we pray to) when Christ is our mediator with God. So next, I will address this issue.

This is an excellent question, and one which is, I think, based on a misunderstanding of prayer, intercession, and mediation.

Let's start with prayer to make sure we have a firm grasp of what it means in Catholicism. In Greek, there are several words for prayer, of which we will examine two, proseuchomai and deomai. Proseuchomai is prayer that carries with it the connotation of worship, it is prayer reserved for God alone. This is the word Christ uses when He teaches the Apostles the Lord's Prayer. Deomai is prayer in the form of requests for aid, entreaties, begging, etc. Deomai carries no connotation of worship, and is used throughout the Bible as people make requests of each other. The problem arises when translated from Greek into English, both words are translated as prayer. If you examine an English dictionary you will see that both definitions I have listed here have corresponding definitions for the word pray. You will also see that the etymology of the word pray comes from the Latin precari which simply means "to ask."

When Catholics pray to the Saints and Mary, we are not using proseuchomai, far from it. Catholics use deomai prayer, we ask those in Heaven to ask God for things on our behalf. In other words, we use deomai to request of the Saints and Mary that they use proseuchomai on our behalf. We also use deomai to ask of our friends and family to use proseuchomai on our behalf (which is exactly what you do if you've ever asked someone to pray for someone or something). And we of course use proseuchomai on our own behalf as well.

So in reply to the first part of the question, while we certainly have a God to pray to with Christ as our Mediator, this does not preclude in any way prayers to the Saints, for it is a different prayer altogether, and one that is not worshipful, but instead a simple request, and a request for prayers at that!

Now, this does not address why we pray to the Saints and Mary, nor does it demonstrate why there is any necessity for intercession from anyone else. There are many answers to this, many possible replies, etc. My personal favorite is the one given right below this paragraph. But one thing that I have to note before continuing is that we do not actually believe that intercession from Saints is necessary. You do not have to ask for the intercession of the Saints or of Mary as a Catholic. While we have many beautiful prayers that involve Saintly intercession, we also have many beautiful prayers that do not involve the Saints at all! And there is always free form prayer, which is the prayer I use the most. We don't claim it is absolutely necessary to ask for intercession. But we do believe it to be a very important, possibly even essential part of a strong spiritual life, because we are all part of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Like it or not, by virtue of the fact that we are Christians, even though we are currently walking around on Earth, we are connected through Christ to all the Saints who are alive in Christ in Heaven. We are still one Body, the Church, just in different states of existence. To deny a spiritual relationship with other parts of the Body is tantamount to the eye saying to the foot that it needs it not. We are not in this alone. We have our brothers and sisters walking the Earth with us now, and we have our brothers and sisters waiting for us in Heaven (we also have our brothers and sisters who are performing penance in Purgatory, but that's a whole other issue, haha). The mouth cannot say to the hand that it doesn't need it, the eye cannot cut off the foot, and we cannot say that it is wrong to have a relationship with our Saintly brethren. It is essential for a healthy body that all parts of it work together as they are meant to, if the arm ignores the brain, or the foot ignores the leg, there can only be pain and trouble for all involved, for the entire Body. And now, let's look at at another, perhaps more practical reason, why intercession is a good thing.

I ask you to consider this: Christ links our Faith and our Prayers, yes? Whatsoever you ask in my name will be given, whoever asks with faith that his request will be answered will have it granted to him, right? There is a link between our faith and our requests. And in times of great duress, it can be very difficult to have perfect faith in God, to see past our doubts and distress and rely on Him and know He will aid us. We are, after all, only people, people with imperfect bodies and minds. It is to be expected of us that at times doubts seep into our hearts and cloud our faith, damaging our prayers. But those who are in Heaven, in other words those people whose Faith we know to have been so great that they are already Glorified, Perfected in Christ, do they have such doubts? Such worries? Such clouding in their hearts? Of course not, they have been Glorified. So we turn to them, knowing that these people have a Faith which can never doubt and never fail, and we know then that even if we doubt and fail, we have those supporting us who will never. That is one reason why we pray to the Saints, and even more so to Mary for Mary was one whose faith never wavered even in life.

Next up, is the idea that Catholics believe that the Saints desire glorification from us, as well as the objection that we, as Christians, are not to take glory in men, but only in God.

First point is that we are not suggesting that they desire glory. It isn't that they desire, ask for, demand, etc. any glory. It is that God has glorified them, and in accord with His will we also glorify them.

Second point is that glorifying in men is different that glorifying men who have been glorified by God. Glorifying in men means that we are glorying in things that come from men, or in things that are entirely human in origins. This doesn't mean that we cannot glorify those whom God has glorified, for that is something that is from God, not from men.

We also have the objection that Mary cannot be the Mother of God because it implies that a portion of God was "unmade" before Christ. This is really a more minor issue, and easily addressed.

The Son proceeds from the Father, or is, as better put, Eternally Begotten by the Father. But unless you are going to suggest that Christ was not God, Mary is still the mother of Christ, who was 100% God (The Son). If Christ was God, something I'd assume we agree on, then Mary was indeed the Mother of God. This doesn't mean that Mary was necessary for The Son to exist, or that the Son wasn't the Son before He was born of Mary, it merely means that God became Man, remained both God and Man, and had a mother as a result. A mother who is rightfully called the Mother of God.

A further objection is occasionally offered against Mary as being sinless in that God used sinful humans for various purposes in the Old Testament, and that God was not specific nor picky as to who He wanted for His vessel. I will here address the flaw of treating men like Moses, Samuel, David, Jonah, etc. like Mary.

God used those unworthy servants (they were not vessels at all) for very different tasks than the one He had for Mary. First of all being that Mary was a vessel, while the gentlemen listed were prophets, kings, judges or patriarchs, etc. Their roles were not that of a vessel for the object of a divine covenant, they had different jobs.

In fact, in stark contradiction to the above objection, God was very specific as to the kind of vessel He desired to carry the tablets of His first covenant.

Exodus 25: "10 Frame an ark of setim wood, the length whereof shall be of two cubits and a half: the breadth, a cubit and a half: the height, likewise, a cubit and a half.

11 And thou shalt overlay it with the purest gold within and without: and over it thou shalt make a golden crown round about: 12 And four golden rings, which thou shall put at the four corners of the ark: let two rings be on the one side, and two on the other. 13 Thou shalt make bars also of setim wood, and shalt overlay them with gold. 14 And thou shalt put them in through the rings that are in the sides of the ark, that it may be carried on them. 15 And they shall be always in the rings, neither shall they at any time be drawn out of them.

16 And thou shalt put in the ark the testimony which I will give thee. 17 Thou shalt make also a propitiatory of the purest gold: the length thereof shall be two cubits and a half, and the breadth a cubit and a half. 18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. 20 Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered."

God was very specific as to the materials and their quality that were to be employed to create the Ark of the Old Covenant. For the sake of some stone tablets and the law, God demands the purest gold, rare wood, very exact measurements and specific decorations, etc. This was for some pieces of stone and written commandments. Christ was the New Covenant. His Flesh and His Blood are consecrated things offered up for us, He Himself notes this at the Last Supper. Christ was far greater in stature and importance than the first Covenant, and as a material object, He far surpasses the stone tablets and the law. And as a result, He also requires a far superior Ark, one which is capable of carrying Him. Christ requires a hallowed and specially made Ark, just as the Tablets of the Old Covenant required a hallowed and specially made Ark.

Finally, I will address the flawed misconception that Catholic prayers to the Saints are similar to pleading with the dead for favors.

This is a misunderstanding of prayer to the Saints. We are not pleading with the dead for favors.

What we are doing is asking for those who are alive with Christ to pray to Christ with us.

The idea is neither for us to not pray to Christ, nor is it to pray to the "dead." Those who are Saints are not dead, they are living in Christ, the fulfillment of His Promise of Everlasting Life to His followers.

If one will agree that Saints in Heaven are alive in Christ, and part of His promise to His followers of Everlasting Life (He even says in the Gospels that there are those with Him who will never taste of death), then that will remedy the first misunderstanding. Then if you understand that we do not expect the Saints to have any power of their own, and that it is assumed, automatically, when we petition a Saint that the Saint will pray to God, and not work some power through him or herself, and moreover that we are not supposed to neglect praying to God ourselves, this will be completely remedied.

As a final point regarding praying to the Saints, do remember that when Paul was writing, there were not particularly many Saints to pray to. Other than Stephen and Dismas, I cannot think of many Christians of note who would've been Saints when Paul was writing. But what Paul does do is encourage people on Earth to pray for each other. Paul himself often asks the communities that he writes to to pray for him and other missionaries, etc.

What this means is that if you accept the idea that the Church transcends just those of us currently walking the Earth, and also includes the Spiritual presence of the Saints, for example, then Paul asking the Earthly members of the Church for prayers is not at all dissimilar from our asking the Spiritual members of the Church for prayers. We are still all one Body, and it is only right that the parts of the Body help each other, love each other, etc.