Religion Discussion (Second Rebuttal)

Worry not, I completely understand lacking the time or the right words to complete a debate. Feel free in the future to take as much time as you need. I'm glad that you didn't have any doubts that Christians had teachings, that's a good point to agree on.

You challenge that there were teachings that exist and say that Christ was not God prior to the 4th Century, but again, as I've already demonstrated and argued, the mere existence of a contrary opinion doesn't invalidate or render nonexistent the orthodox belief and teaching. It would be no better were I to argue that because there were those at the time of Muhammed who didn't believe he was a prophet, we cannot trust any teaching now that says Muhammed was a prophet. That someone disagreed back then only means that people disagreed.

Now as to the teachings regarding Christ's divinity, as far as I'm aware there was no formal challenge to the notion prior to Arius, which is why his heresy was such a big deal. And again, the Church works off of the teachings of Christ Himself through the Apostles, that is the deposit of faith from which inerrant teachings come. Whether individual humans, who I'm sure you can agree are fallen and fallible, taught something is less important than what Christ taught and what the Church taught. If they even did teach it, which again, I'm not aware of. The major heresies before Arianism had to do with gnosticism and were actually a rejection of the material universe, not Christ's divinity.

And it seems to be implied that there were written teachings, a la Scripture, that declared Christ to be not divine, prior to the 4th Century, on the level of the Scriptures that were later approved by the Church for the Biblical Canon. As far as I'm aware, all Scripture comporting this or the idea that the material world was evil (gnosticism), came in the second and third centuries, AD, nowhere near to Christ's life and the lives of the Apostles.

I am also glad we can agree that the early Christians were not playing telephone. As to the idea that the teachings would be changed either because someone intentionally changes them or because someone mistakenly changed them, sure, that happens. It happens now, and it happens then.

The difference, Mr. Diga, is that those are mistakes made by individuals. You'll find no instance wherein the Church itself taught one thing, and then changed its mind and taught something else that contradicted an infallible teaching. The Church never does it in 2000 years of history. The individuals who do it, yes, some made mistakes, and again we have a Church that can teach for very reason of correcting such errors. Those who purposefully corrupted the teachings to suit their own ends or attack Christian can certainly not be called Christian, nor are their teachings Christian. And again, those teachings are known because they are contrary to what the belief of Christianity was. The Church taught, it clarified, it corrected all these errors and assaults, weaving a path along the razor's edge between truth and falsehood, avoiding dozens of theological and philosophical pitfalls throughout the centuries.

Nor does either possibility allow one to conclude, as you did, that, "no teaching could have survived by oral speach." This is a non sequitur, you've concluded it, but without premises which make the conclusion valid.

Your skepticism does you well, Mr. Diga, but I wonder why you haven't applied it to your own religious structure. In your example, you note that Muslims would trace through every scholar the path of a teaching. If this is the case, you've done two things. First is that you've demonstrated that a teaching can survive being passed orally. Second is that you've put implicit faith in those writing that they heard this from someone. How do you know they actually heard it? That it is written down someone doesn't make it either more factually correct, nor more likely to be the actual message, nor more likely to contain revealed, divine truth. It only makes it easier to trace. Your own argumentative style would cause problems for Islam as well. Nothing in the chain of Muslim scholars proves anything in and of itself, nor can claims of goo reputation of trust worthiness demonstrate anything conclusive about their passed down teachings.

As for Christianity, we can see the passing down and maintenance of Christian belief in the writings of the Church Fathers, and we can see orthodox Christian teaching in the authoritative documents of the Church itself. Yes, at a certain point, one chooses to have faith either in a person or an institution. We both fall into this category, and must both concede that we do. The issue is more truly, which of us has selected the right thing to place our faith in, and why.

And yes, there were plenty of Early Christian writings before Nicaea.

I never said that Christianity prior to Nicaea didn't have divisions, Mr. Diga, I noted that the divinity of Christ was not one of them, a point I've reiterated above. The major issues prior to Arianism were the Gnostsic heresies, which focused more on materialism and dualism than Christ's divinity. More importantly, again, the mere presence of disagreement does not render teaching invalid, nor mean that the correct teaching was not passed on. Further non sequitur.

It's interesting that you mention Muslim scholars who were "believers in Christ." Tell me, Mr. Diga, what would you say if I made claims about supposed "Muslims" who believe that Muhammed was not God's prophet? Or believe that Christ is God?

Would they actually be Muslims? Or would their claim to being "Muslim" be false due to the nature of Islam? Based on what I know of Islam, I would wager that their claim would be false, if they don't believe that Muhammed is God's prophet, and Christ was a prophet before him, they cannot be Muslim. Likewise, someone who rejects Christ as God can hardly be called a Christian, and for the same reason.

As for the alleged "gospel" of Barnabas, Mr. Diga, your skepticism again would serve you in better stead were you to direct it at your own claims and beliefs. Let us do so.

Prove that this so-called gospel was written by Barnabas, prove that it came from the 1st Century, prove that it accurately represents Christ's life, and prove that it is not just a corruption of Christian teachings by Muslims in order to prove Islam.

For example, you'll need to overcome certain hurdles. First is the fact that there are no references nor occurrences of this "gospel" before the 16th Century, or possibly the 7th. Second is the fact that none of the canonical Gospels, which all date from the first century in every range given, agree with it. Third is the fact that its trustworthiness is even denied by some Muslim scholars, a telling point given your own claims about determining trustworthiness in the Islamic system.

You are wise indeed not to trust this book, Mr. Diga, since it's not at all trustworthy. It's even less reputable than the Gnostic gospels. You shouldn't see it as confirmation of anything regarding Christ or His teachings, as it is vastly more likely to be a fabrication of Islam used against Christianity, particularly in Spain.

Now, you disagree with my arguments about the Church's authority based on what? Where does God say that He will only give authority to His prophets? I've not seen that in any writing of any prophet that Christians and Muslims agree is legitimate.

And as Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, and Jesus claimed that He was giving authority to a Church, your argument is self-defeating. If God gives authority to prophets, and a prophet gives authority to an institution, the institution would have that same authority. And if Jesus is not just a prophet, but God Himself, then we have an even stronger authority granted the Church.

I understand that you have the ability to disagree, Mr. Diga, I would appreciate it if you'd give slightly more reasoning behind your disagreement. I really do need to know what your basing this on, so I can address it. As I've already said, your claim seems to defeat itself straight off the bat.

As to your questions, first, the Church's authority exists within the Church, it is completely and utterly irrelevant where national borders are. Even the Vatican City is not the Church's authority itself, it's merely the state wherein the Pope resides, so he may not be held hostage by any one nation (which was a major issue in the earlier half of the 20th Century). The Church speaks in three ways. Through Councils. Through the universal teaching of all its Bishops. And through infallible Papal instructions. Again, nations do not come into it.

To the second, slavery exists even now, but slavery died out in Europe in the period spanning from approximately the 500s to the 1500s, which is due precisely to Christianity's influence and the Church's power in Europe at this time. In fact, the Church is on record multiple times in this era decrying the enslavement of free Christians by Muslims, and teaching several times over that the stealing of people for slaves was morally reprehensible. Slavery thrived in the Roman Empire (and earlier), and it burst back onto the scene with colonization and imperialism (aided and abetted by both scientists and religious who saw natives and indigenous peoples as less human or sub human).

Only Christianity began the teaching that all humans were created equal by God, whatever their lot was in life, and only Christianity began the teaching that all humans could be saved by God, that God loved everyone, and that every human person had value, worth and dignity. These ideas are generally the natural antithesis to the institution of slavery, particularly as it is known now. Nor has the Church "stopped" teaching about slavery. The Church never stops saying something is wrong. If the Church has infallibly taught it once, it infallibly teaches it for all time, regardless of whether it is reiterated in Councils. It is up to those of us in the Church to continually follow the Church's teachings, just as Muslims must continually follow the Quran, without waiting for updates to its teachings, nor requiring extra editions, or repetitions.

Your third point is not even worth addressing. You've begged the question. You cannot assume Muhammed was a prophet, and use your assumption to prove that the Church can't have authority. You're begging the question as to whether Muhammed actually IS a prophet. Obviously, I say he is not. So you'll have to prove it.

Shall we debate whether Muhammed is a prophet next? I look forward to your arguments proving this in your next post.

In contention to one of your final points, I did not argue that the Church is right because it is old. I argued that the Church has demonstrated continuity of teaching and belief, wherein it has never contradicted itself, and has been existant without pause. No other religious system can make such a claim. Both Buddhism and Hinduism continually alter and adapt their teachings, the claim that they have orthodoxy which remains consistent is impossible to determine. Islam isn't as old. Most pagan beliefs have died out and been revived at various points both before and after Christianity.

And Arians and Muslims differ in teachings, Mr. Diga, because they're not the exact same religion. Arianism quite probably influenced Islam, but it is not the same thing as Islam, and that plus the gap between Arianism as a corpus of believers and Islam as a corpus of believers puts paid to the notion that this is a contiguous belief of a major religion.

"i disagree, when you look at the christians world and teachings you are right.
but look at islam, the prophet mohamad's teaching and the Quran which is the book of God is enough to get you through any choice without commiting mistakes... in short, the prophet pretty much told us about everything we need. the remaining stuff could be figured out by men. it's as simple as what did the porphet had to say about this."

Is it? So Muslims never make interpretive mistakes? Muslims never disagree as to the meaning of passages in the Quran? Some Muslims don't interpret certain sections to be about, for instance, the conversion of pagans by warfare, while others do not? Some Muslims don't claim that Islam demands war with the West, Jihad, others say this is a misunderstanding of the nature of Jihad. Some Muslims say leadership of the Islamic world should be through the Prophet's family, do they not? Others disagree, yes?

The "prophet" certainly did not tell you everything you need. Islamic scholars have been interpreting the Quran from the very beginning, as well as the Hadith and other important works in Islam. If the remaining stuff could be figured out by men, they've done a rather paltry job of it.

One could equally claim that the Bible is sufficient to get one through any moral choice without doing evil. It's quite clear about most things, after all. But that doesn't mean there isn't plenty of nuance and layers of meaning which need clearer explanation and interpretation. If the Quran is really God's book, I would be amazed if it were so simple as to lack any thing at all which could not be misunderstood or misinterpreted. After all, God Himself is continually misinterpreted and misunderstood.

I hope you enjoyed this portion of our discussion, I look forward to continuing it! I certainly understand that we are both seekers of the truth, and that all our discussion occurs as part of that search, and as part of the testing of conclusions we've arrived at in that search.

Until next time,